suspiciouslyradical:

cuddly-trash:

suspiciouslyradical:

cuddly-trash:

radical-grape:

radical-grape:

cuddly-trash:

radfems don’t actually believe what they say about women = female sex only and men = male sex only

they give intersex people “permission” to be the gender they identify as/were assigned as even if it’s the opposite of their actual sex

is it out of pity? whatever the reason is, it’s hypocritical and shows they only say the shit they do out of a hatred for trans people, not because of Logic and Science like they claim

Not even true lol

We know female intersex people are women and male intersex people are men.

I assume youre talking about the ones that were raised as the opposite sex. To make things easy i will only be addressing male intersex people that were raised as girls/women. The reason we make “exceptions” for them is because they know what womenhood is like, they know what it is to be a woman because they, and everyone around them, thought they were women for their entire lives. They literally experienced life as woman, including all the oppression, misogyny, etc that comes with it. That’s why they’re allowed to speak “as women”, that’s why they may align themselves with us. We’re fully aware that they’re not biologically women, as are they, we’re simply practicing nuance in a situation that calls for it.

Thats not even close to men, raised as boys/men, who have no idea what womanhood is like, claiming that for whatever reason they must be women. They have nothing in common with me. They have no idea what it means to be a woman. You know its completely different. Yet you once again want to rope intersex people into this, use them as convenient pawns, pretend theyre the same as transpeople, bladiebladiebla. Just leave them out of this for once, jeez.

Please reread your second paragraph. Reread it multiple times. Your second paragraph is exactly what my op was about.

Radfems make exceptions for intersex people. This makes every post that radfems make saying “women are adult human females xx chromosomes uterus ovaries only” fake and hypocritical. Radfems don’t really, actually believe it, because if they did they wouldn’t give intersex women an exception. 

What radical feminists really consider women, is exactly what you said here and all other radfems do as well, are people socialized/raised as women.

Problems with this socialization argument:

Not all girls are raised the same way. Girls are raised in different cultures. Different cultures have different ideas of femininity. Some cultures are more misogynist than others. Are women raised in a more misogynist culture, more “women” than women raised in a less misogynist culture? I’m way more privileged than a lot of women, so many girls had way worse, way more traumatic childhoods than me, but I am still a woman. Why does that not also apply to trans women?

Trans women may not know what it feels to be raised a certain way as a girl, but neither would women from other cultures either in comparison to your or my culture. They are still women in our eyes though, and we are in theirs as well. 

Also trans children exist. Using radfem understanding of gendered socialization, they are socialized as the opposite sex from young ages in this situation. Under radical feminist logic, they should also be acknowledged as the gender they identify as, because of their socialization. Yet radfems will still call, Jazz Jennings for example, a boy, even though she’s been raised as a girl almost her WHOLE life. That is hypocritical.

Why don’t trans women deserve nuance like you give to intersex women?

Girls are raised in different cultures. Different cultures have different ideas of femininity.

wait so how do these cultures decide who gets treated like a girl?

despite cultural differences, girls and women and the very rare phenotypically female but genotypically male intersex person are oppressed on the basis of being born with bodies that appear female from the moment of birth. if a male baby is born and from that very moment his biological sex is disguised and his parents as well as the entire rest of the world perceives and treats him as female? that’s an exception i am willing to make for a male being socialised as female. when trans women pass entirely, they will experience nuances of misogyny from that moment on. before that it’s homophobia and transphobia. is that a comparable experience to a person perceived as female (not as a trans girl/woman. as female) her whole life?

jazz’s parents have made 100% sure that nobody will ever forget that their child is trans. is growing up a trans girl the same as growing up a cis girl? you just said girls are raised so differently everywhere, so being a girl doesn’t really constitute a shared experience. but being a “trans girl” is somehow a shared experience with being a “cis girl”? that sounds a lot like your argument is “we cannot define womanhood so everyone who defines themselves as a woman is a woman despite womanhood not having a definition”? 

trans people can live as the social manifestation of the sex they desire to be. it’s fine. they will get to know some of the aspects of living as that sex in a gendered society. not all of them though. because they are not that sex. it really is not that complicated. 

Idk if we disagree much here?

The only thing is your second to last paragraph, I don’t really understand what you’re saying. Girls are raised differently everywhere, so girlhood doesn’t always constitute a shared experience, yes. The radfem socialization argument is faulty precisely because there are different kinds of female socializations. So a trans girl can be a girl without having the same experiences as a cis girl because there is no one defining experience of girlhood. In my opinion.

if girlhood has no defining characteristics, what makes a trans girl trans and what makes her a girl? what does it mean to grow up as a girl and to be socialised as a girl, for trans girls and for cis girls, if girlhood is not a specific experience? 

is this only true on the axis of sex and gender or also for other social groups? an east-asian person for instance will be raised differently depending on where they live. so can i, a white person, define myself as east-asian, make myself look like an east-asian person and then i will be an east-asian person without having the same experiences as someone born east-asian? after all an east-asian person in mexico will be treated quite differently than an east-asian person in japan. there is no shared east-asian experience, so east-asianness cannot be defined and everybody who feels east-asian can be east-asian as long as they try to pass as east-asian so they are at least partially perceived as and treated east-asian in social situations. or…?

i think this post by @tejuina and @celtyradfem articulates it better. 

we have arrived at the good ol’ “what is a woman” discussion and intersex people have once again been used as a pawn to reach that argument. great

Thanks for the shout out

suspiciouslyradical:

cuddly-trash:

suspiciouslyradical:

cuddly-trash:

radical-grape:

radical-grape:

cuddly-trash:

radfems don’t actually believe what they say about women = female sex only and men = male sex only

they give intersex people “permission” to be the gender they identify as/were assigned as even if it’s the opposite of their actual sex

is it out of pity? whatever the reason is, it’s hypocritical and shows they only say the shit they do out of a hatred for trans people, not because of Logic and Science like they claim

Not even true lol

We know female intersex people are women and male intersex people are men.

I assume youre talking about the ones that were raised as the opposite sex. To make things easy i will only be addressing male intersex people that were raised as girls/women. The reason we make “exceptions” for them is because they know what womenhood is like, they know what it is to be a woman because they, and everyone around them, thought they were women for their entire lives. They literally experienced life as woman, including all the oppression, misogyny, etc that comes with it. That’s why they’re allowed to speak “as women”, that’s why they may align themselves with us. We’re fully aware that they’re not biologically women, as are they, we’re simply practicing nuance in a situation that calls for it.

Thats not even close to men, raised as boys/men, who have no idea what womanhood is like, claiming that for whatever reason they must be women. They have nothing in common with me. They have no idea what it means to be a woman. You know its completely different. Yet you once again want to rope intersex people into this, use them as convenient pawns, pretend theyre the same as transpeople, bladiebladiebla. Just leave them out of this for once, jeez.

Please reread your second paragraph. Reread it multiple times. Your second paragraph is exactly what my op was about.

Radfems make exceptions for intersex people. This makes every post that radfems make saying “women are adult human females xx chromosomes uterus ovaries only” fake and hypocritical. Radfems don’t really, actually believe it, because if they did they wouldn’t give intersex women an exception. 

What radical feminists really consider women, is exactly what you said here and all other radfems do as well, are people socialized/raised as women.

Problems with this socialization argument:

Not all girls are raised the same way. Girls are raised in different cultures. Different cultures have different ideas of femininity. Some cultures are more misogynist than others. Are women raised in a more misogynist culture, more “women” than women raised in a less misogynist culture? I’m way more privileged than a lot of women, so many girls had way worse, way more traumatic childhoods than me, but I am still a woman. Why does that not also apply to trans women?

Trans women may not know what it feels to be raised a certain way as a girl, but neither would women from other cultures either in comparison to your or my culture. They are still women in our eyes though, and we are in theirs as well. 

Also trans children exist. Using radfem understanding of gendered socialization, they are socialized as the opposite sex from young ages in this situation. Under radical feminist logic, they should also be acknowledged as the gender they identify as, because of their socialization. Yet radfems will still call, Jazz Jennings for example, a boy, even though she’s been raised as a girl almost her WHOLE life. That is hypocritical.

Why don’t trans women deserve nuance like you give to intersex women?

Girls are raised in different cultures. Different cultures have different ideas of femininity.

wait so how do these cultures decide who gets treated like a girl?

despite cultural differences, girls and women and the very rare phenotypically female but genotypically male intersex person are oppressed on the basis of being born with bodies that appear female from the moment of birth. if a male baby is born and from that very moment his biological sex is disguised and his parents as well as the entire rest of the world perceives and treats him as female? that’s an exception i am willing to make for a male being socialised as female. when trans women pass entirely, they will experience nuances of misogyny from that moment on. before that it’s homophobia and transphobia. is that a comparable experience to a person perceived as female (not as a trans girl/woman. as female) her whole life?

jazz’s parents have made 100% sure that nobody will ever forget that their child is trans. is growing up a trans girl the same as growing up a cis girl? you just said girls are raised so differently everywhere, so being a girl doesn’t really constitute a shared experience. but being a “trans girl” is somehow a shared experience with being a “cis girl”? that sounds a lot like your argument is “we cannot define womanhood so everyone who defines themselves as a woman is a woman despite womanhood not having a definition”? 

trans people can live as the social manifestation of the sex they desire to be. it’s fine. they will get to know some of the aspects of living as that sex in a gendered society. not all of them though. because they are not that sex. it really is not that complicated. 

Idk if we disagree much here?

The only thing is your second to last paragraph, I don’t really understand what you’re saying. Girls are raised differently everywhere, so girlhood doesn’t always constitute a shared experience, yes. The radfem socialization argument is faulty precisely because there are different kinds of female socializations. So a trans girl can be a girl without having the same experiences as a cis girl because there is no one defining experience of girlhood. In my opinion.

if girlhood has no defining characteristics, what makes a trans girl trans and what makes her a girl? what does it mean to grow up as a girl and to be socialised as a girl, for trans girls and for cis girls, if girlhood is not a specific experience? 

is this only true on the axis of sex and gender or also for other social groups? an east-asian person for instance will be raised differently depending on where they live. so can i, a white person, define myself as east-asian, make myself look like an east-asian person and then i will be an east-asian person without having the same experiences as someone born east-asian? after all an east-asian person in mexico will be treated quite differently than an east-asian person in japan. there is no shared east-asian experience, so east-asianness cannot be defined and everybody who feels east-asian can be east-asian as long as they try to pass as east-asian so they are at least partially perceived as and treated east-asian in social situations. or…?

i think this post by @tejuina and @celtyradfem articulates it better. 

we have arrived at the good ol’ “what is a woman” discussion and intersex people have once again been used as a pawn to reach that argument. great

Thanks for the shout out