You look even more suspicious than men because men make up half the world’s fucking population and don’t have a choice about being men
Meanwhile, feminists are part of a group. You CHOOSE to be a feminist.
So you may want to rethink your logic, OP.
Men chose to rape, abuse, batter, buy and sell women.
Men choose to uphold their power and unearned privilege to maintain their hierarchies.
That is their choice.
Feminism exists in large part because what men choose to do to women.
We are suspicious because many men do this yet the common response to what men do to women.
Because they throw tantrums instead addressing the problem.
Claiming that because you *choose* to be a part of a group in this context falls flat when you realise what group we are choosing to be in and why.
You do know that human traffickers are women too? Whorehouse owners are also more often than not, women. So yeah. Woman on woman abuse.
Who buys these women?
Pimps/human traffickers are usually male and I can assure you many madam run brothels have male pimps involved as well.
Madams often were previously prostituted themselves.
Exactly. Do I look like I’m defending porn? Hell no, if it’s not consensual.
Um….that doesn’t seem to be in response to what I said but ok then.
What are you trying to say?
You’re overreacting about men’s so called “privilege” that’s what I’m saying. Calm the fuck down. The world is not as bad as you desperately want it to be.
Men can buy women as sexual commodities and this is not only legal in many places in the West but increasingly socially acceptable for men to do.
The women voluntarily sell their bodies. Yes , many times it’s not consensual but humans aren’t perfect so don’t expect to live in a utopia ,yes? If a woman chooses to sell sex , then let her be.
“In addition to legalizing pimping, the Prostitution Act made it possible
for prostituted people to become regular employees, subject to taxation
and access to social benefits. Yet only 44 out of an estimated 400,000-1,000,000 prostituted people have chosen to register as prostitutes in order to access said benefits.“
Why do you think this is?
Because there is a stigma that comes with selling your body. And I don’t care if it’s a product of your so called patriarchy, the stigma is well deserved.
Aren’t you contradicting your earlier “ If a woman chooses to sell sex, then let her be“ stance?
If there is so much stigma about prostitution why do they have adverts for prostitution all over the fucking place in Germany?
How come men buying sex is openly advertised and often times condoned but being a woman selling sex has a lot of “stigma“?
“The normalization of prostitution in Germany, even among school-aged
children, has lead to young men celebrating their high school graduation
(called “Abitur”) together in brothels.
Here, it’s no big deal that boys as young as 16 go to their local
prostitution apartment to buy sex (something I see on a regular basis in
my own neighbourhood).“
This doesn’t sound like prostituition being stigmaitised among German men and even teeanage boys.
Are really going to sit there and tell me it isn’t patriarchal?
Are you really going to tell me that men buying women is just like buying coffee or driving through to buy women (thanks to legalisation of prostitution) isn’t patriarchal?
“Competing for customers means that brothel chains like the Pascha in
Cologne offer gambling games with the chance of winning a free hookup. A brothel in Berlin gives customers a “collection card” like coffee shops do — five visits will grant you a 50 per cent rebate, and your 11th visit is free.“
“In Germany, both convenience and frugality are key, and men can go to
parking garages for drive-in sex, or visit stalls called
“Verrichtungsbox” (“getting things done” boxes). They can now even order
women the way one would order a pizza thanks to a mobile app produced
last year.”
What does it tell you that men can go buy women and face no legal or
social consequences and get a pat on the back but the women in
prostitution are so “stigmatised” that they wouldn’t dare to be openly
identified aa a prostitute even if they could get these so called
benefits that the pro sex industry advocates are offering?
Having to sell your body because you live in poverty does not make it a choice. The women I have worked with, in Indonesia, Nepal, and Sudan as part of an organization I work for that seeks to rescue women for sex trafficking, would not say they “chose” to sell their bodies. They had no other option as it was starve or let men use your body. If saying no is death then there is not a choice. Not to mention most of them were SOLD by their families because there is such little value held for women in many societies or they were STOLEN from their families and forced into the sex industry. By saying if the “choose to, let them be” you are telling the world to turn a blind eye to the struggles of these women.
You look even more suspicious than men because men make up half the world’s fucking population and don’t have a choice about being men
Meanwhile, feminists are part of a group. You CHOOSE to be a feminist.
So you may want to rethink your logic, OP.
Men chose to rape, abuse, batter, buy and sell women.
Men choose to uphold their power and unearned privilege to maintain their hierarchies.
That is their choice.
Feminism exists in large part because what men choose to do to women.
We are suspicious because many men do this yet the common response to what men do to women.
Because they throw tantrums instead addressing the problem.
Claiming that because you *choose* to be a part of a group in this context falls flat when you realise what group we are choosing to be in and why.
You do know that human traffickers are women too? Whorehouse owners are also more often than not, women. So yeah. Woman on woman abuse.
Who buys these women?
Pimps/human traffickers are usually male and I can assure you many madam run brothels have male pimps involved as well.
Madams often were previously prostituted themselves.
Exactly. Do I look like I’m defending porn? Hell no, if it’s not consensual.
Um….that doesn’t seem to be in response to what I said but ok then.
What are you trying to say?
You’re overreacting about men’s so called “privilege” that’s what I’m saying. Calm the fuck down. The world is not as bad as you desperately want it to be.
Men can buy women as sexual commodities and this is not only legal in many places in the West but increasingly socially acceptable for men to do.
The women voluntarily sell their bodies. Yes , many times it’s not consensual but humans aren’t perfect so don’t expect to live in a utopia ,yes? If a woman chooses to sell sex , then let her be.
“In addition to legalizing pimping, the Prostitution Act made it possible
for prostituted people to become regular employees, subject to taxation
and access to social benefits. Yet only 44 out of an estimated 400,000-1,000,000 prostituted people have chosen to register as prostitutes in order to access said benefits.“
Why do you think this is?
Because there is a stigma that comes with selling your body. And I don’t care if it’s a product of your so called patriarchy, the stigma is well deserved.
Aren’t you contradicting your earlier “ If a woman chooses to sell sex, then let her be“ stance?
If there is so much stigma about prostitution why do they have adverts for prostitution all over the fucking place in Germany?
How come men buying sex is openly advertised and often times condoned but being a woman selling sex has a lot of “stigma“?
“The normalization of prostitution in Germany, even among school-aged
children, has lead to young men celebrating their high school graduation
(called “Abitur”) together in brothels.
Here, it’s no big deal that boys as young as 16 go to their local
prostitution apartment to buy sex (something I see on a regular basis in
my own neighbourhood).“
This doesn’t sound like prostituition being stigmaitised among German men and even teeanage boys.
Are really going to sit there and tell me it isn’t patriarchal?
Are you really going to tell me that men buying women is just like buying coffee or driving through to buy women (thanks to legalisation of prostitution) isn’t patriarchal?
“Competing for customers means that brothel chains like the Pascha in
Cologne offer gambling games with the chance of winning a free hookup. A brothel in Berlin gives customers a “collection card” like coffee shops do — five visits will grant you a 50 per cent rebate, and your 11th visit is free.“
“In Germany, both convenience and frugality are key, and men can go to
parking garages for drive-in sex, or visit stalls called
“Verrichtungsbox” (“getting things done” boxes). They can now even order
women the way one would order a pizza thanks to a mobile app produced
last year.”
What does it tell you that men can go buy women and face no legal or
social consequences and get a pat on the back but the women in
prostitution are so “stigmatised” that they wouldn’t dare to be openly
identified aa a prostitute even if they could get these so called
benefits that the pro sex industry advocates are offering?
I’m still with the “If she wants to sell her body, let her be ” stance. But she must be ready to face the stigma. And what are you saying here? That men (and women even though that barely happens) should not be allowed to buy sex by people that offer it in exchange for money? What’s the problem here? Your movement keeps preaching “my body my decisions” so obviously the decision to sell it is acceptable , but it won’t pass without a stigma , which is there because of the “patriarchy”
“I’m still with the “If she wants to sell her body, let her be ” stance.”
You are with ‘male entitlement to women’s bodies but pass the blame onto women and pretend they want this not men’ stance.
Point at her and say she “choose” this, she did this, she caused this, she wants this so nobody turns to look at you.
“But she must be ready to face the stigma. “
So she takes all the burden, shame, pain, injury and trauma everything you euphemize as “stigma” and he gets his pound of flesh, he doesn’t face consequences or ~stigma~ and gets to absolves himself with a patriarchal society’s blessing.
Sounds like Victorian England.
Very Puritanical.
“And what are you saying here?
That men (and women even though that barely happens) should not be
allowed to buy sex by people that offer it in exchange for money?”
Yes. That is exactly what I am saying.
Men do not have the right to purchase women and use our bodies like commodities for their selfish consumption.
“What’s
the problem here?”
You and men like you.
“Your movement keeps preaching “my body my decisions” “
Prostitution and pornography is:
He makes the demand. She is the supply.
Her body, His choice.
Her pain. His pleasure.
Her sexual subordination. His sexual satisfaction.
“so obviously the decision to sell it is acceptable”
That is a disingenuous leap.
Feminism is about women being free from male oppression and male control and men buying women and women having to to be sold is not “her body her choice“.
We were talking about sex trafficking yet you still fall back on the “she ‘chose’ this“ defense.
but it won’t pass
without a stigma , which is there because of the “patriarchy”
Why are you denying there is a patriarchy when you are admitting the symptoms of what patriarchy entails exist?
You may as well admit it.
If a woman chooses to sell her body, nobody forced her . You’re trying to blame men for the choices that women make. NOBODY forced them. Nobody other than themselves. Men aren’t entitled to women’s bodies. Nobody’s entitled to take advantage of another human. But if you but something up for sale, you can’t yell at the one that buys it . Oh and, how are “men” like me the problem? I’m not a man. I’m a fucking BOY. I’m 15 years old . And no, I don’t watch porn. It gives me no pleasure whatsoever, so here goes that argument you were about to drop
“If a woman chooses to sell her body, nobody forced her.”
Why do you assume no one forced her?
Women can be forced to ‘chose‘ this.
They be forced to ‘chose‘ this a lot easier than you seem to think.
Poverty, children to feed, drug and alcohol addiction (which they may not have had before prostitution), their country being unstable, blackmail, trickery, debt bondage,
“You’re trying
to blame men for the choices that women make.”
Men are to blame for what women are forced into.
If men didn’t impoverish women she wouldn’t be in the brothel.
If men didn’t pimp women she wouldn’t be far away from home.
If men didn’t make the demand for women’s bodies the sex trade wouldn’t exist.
You are shifting the blame onto women for what men do and what men demand and blaming the (victimised/trafficked) woman.
The men who buy women know exactly what they are doing. They have forums, search the internet for brothels, look up places where prostitution is advertised, have contacts etc. why aren’t you questioning their choices?
Isn’t it patronising to the men who buy sex and men in general to absolve them of the actions and choices?
“NOBODY forced them.”
Yeah they just decided to leave their poor(er) nations and travel to Germany to work in mega brothels. Nice men paid for their travel expenses and hold their passports for ‘safekeeping’. It is just another form of backpacking across Europe and the brothels are just travel lodges.
Don’t look at the man who is suspiciously always nearby just look at her.
(We were talking about sex trafficking if I need to remind you.)
“Nobody
other than themselves.”
So they are sex trafficking themselves and got themselves raped?
“Men aren’t entitled to women’s bodies.”
But they are entitled to buy them because without caring how these women came to be prostituted there was an offer (regardless of who is making the offer and what circumstances lead to the offer).
You are contradicting yourself.
“Nobody’s
entitled to take advantage of another human. But if you but something up
for sale, you can’t yell at the one that buys it.”
Of course you can.
If someone buys someone’s kidney (even if they offered) you can yell at them.
In fact you can arrest the kidney buyer because that is a crime.
If someone knowingly buys stolen goods they can be charged.
If a person or organisation buys artifacts they can be reprimanded if those artifacts were not legally and ethically procured
Just because there is an offer doesn’t automatically mean it is ok to take it.
Bonus question: If a pimp is putting a woman up for sale is it ok?
“I’m a fucking BOY. I’m 15 years old . And no, I don’t watch porn. It gives me no pleasure whatsoever, so here goes that argument you were about to drop“
Yet you are still defending it.
You are contributing to the problem when you defend it.
Don’t you ever wonder where you learned your “she chose this” stance?
You use the same arguments and denials that sex industry advocates and johns use.
Isn’t that strange?
It’s not men that force women into prostitution. It’s the system. I liked the example you provided with the kidneys. Same way women are practically forced to whore themselves out , due to poverty , or no other viable options, men or anyone can get forced into desperate measures. For example paid kidney donation, smuggling drugs for huge cartels , robbery or even murder. If you strip a human of all their choices , they’ll resort to that kind of stuff. Women usually end up being prostitutes , men end up being robbers or smugglers. But you can’t blame men solely for a system so corrupted , that people struck by it’s apathetic capitalism have no other option. That’s not men’s fault. That the human race’s fault. Human beings are not perfect ,( yes that does include women whether you like it or not) so the world will never be how you want it to be. Ill be risky and assume you’re one of those people that believe that if women ruled the world , there would be no war, no conflict, no diplomatic conundrums , no drugs and everyone would love eachother unconditionally. Well , you are , to put it simply, wrong. Humans are not perfect , and last time I checked, women are humans just as much as the horrible disgusting white cishet males are.
Men created capitalism.
Capitalism couldn’t exist without exploiting/oppressing women (on a multitude of levels).
The problems you list are not equally created by men and women and women not the beneficiaries of these systems.
Men created those systems.
Men created those conditions.
Men create the demand.
Men benefit from prostitution
Men are the primary sex traffickers
If men weren’t making the demand. Women wouldn’t be prostituted.
It wouldn’t matter if they were so poor they had to resort to eating tree bark.
If men didn’t feel it was their right to buy women prostitution wouldn’t exist.
Men are to blame.
This is men’s fault.
And yes these problems wouldn’t to exist if women were in control from the start. There would be hardship but the world wouldn’t look like this.
Which is why I support the Nordic model of prostitution.
(There is no such thing as ‘cis’. You’re bringing that shit up to the wrong people.).
You look even more suspicious than men because men make up half the world’s fucking population and don’t have a choice about being men
Meanwhile, feminists are part of a group. You CHOOSE to be a feminist.
So you may want to rethink your logic, OP.
Men chose to rape, abuse, batter, buy and sell women.
Men choose to uphold their power and unearned privilege to maintain their hierarchies.
That is their choice.
Feminism exists in large part because what men choose to do to women.
We are suspicious because many men do this yet the common response to what men do to women.
Because they throw tantrums instead addressing the problem.
Claiming that because you *choose* to be a part of a group in this context falls flat when you realise what group we are choosing to be in and why.
You do know that human traffickers are women too? Whorehouse owners are also more often than not, women. So yeah. Woman on woman abuse.
Who buys these women?
Pimps/human traffickers are usually male and I can assure you many madam run brothels have male pimps involved as well.
Madams often were previously prostituted themselves.
Exactly. Do I look like I’m defending porn? Hell no, if it’s not consensual.
Um….that doesn’t seem to be in response to what I said but ok then.
What are you trying to say?
You’re overreacting about men’s so called “privilege” that’s what I’m saying. Calm the fuck down. The world is not as bad as you desperately want it to be.
Men can buy women as sexual commodities and this is not only legal in many places in the West but increasingly socially acceptable for men to do.
The women voluntarily sell their bodies. Yes , many times it’s not consensual but humans aren’t perfect so don’t expect to live in a utopia ,yes? If a woman chooses to sell sex , then let her be.
“In addition to legalizing pimping, the Prostitution Act made it possible
for prostituted people to become regular employees, subject to taxation
and access to social benefits. Yet only 44 out of an estimated 400,000-1,000,000 prostituted people have chosen to register as prostitutes in order to access said benefits.“
Why do you think this is?
Because there is a stigma that comes with selling your body. And I don’t care if it’s a product of your so called patriarchy, the stigma is well deserved.
Aren’t you contradicting your earlier “ If a woman chooses to sell sex, then let her be“ stance?
If there is so much stigma about prostitution why do they have adverts for prostitution all over the fucking place in Germany?
How come men buying sex is openly advertised and often times condoned but being a woman selling sex has a lot of “stigma“?
“The normalization of prostitution in Germany, even among school-aged
children, has lead to young men celebrating their high school graduation
(called “Abitur”) together in brothels.
Here, it’s no big deal that boys as young as 16 go to their local
prostitution apartment to buy sex (something I see on a regular basis in
my own neighbourhood).“
This doesn’t sound like prostituition being stigmaitised among German men and even teeanage boys.
Are really going to sit there and tell me it isn’t patriarchal?
Are you really going to tell me that men buying women is just like buying coffee or driving through to buy women (thanks to legalisation of prostitution) isn’t patriarchal?
“Competing for customers means that brothel chains like the Pascha in
Cologne offer gambling games with the chance of winning a free hookup. A brothel in Berlin gives customers a “collection card” like coffee shops do — five visits will grant you a 50 per cent rebate, and your 11th visit is free.“
“In Germany, both convenience and frugality are key, and men can go to
parking garages for drive-in sex, or visit stalls called
“Verrichtungsbox” (“getting things done” boxes). They can now even order
women the way one would order a pizza thanks to a mobile app produced
last year.”
What does it tell you that men can go buy women and face no legal or
social consequences and get a pat on the back but the women in
prostitution are so “stigmatised” that they wouldn’t dare to be openly
identified aa a prostitute even if they could get these so called
benefits that the pro sex industry advocates are offering?
I’m still with the “If she wants to sell her body, let her be ” stance. But she must be ready to face the stigma. And what are you saying here? That men (and women even though that barely happens) should not be allowed to buy sex by people that offer it in exchange for money? What’s the problem here? Your movement keeps preaching “my body my decisions” so obviously the decision to sell it is acceptable , but it won’t pass without a stigma , which is there because of the “patriarchy”
“I’m still with the “If she wants to sell her body, let her be ” stance.”
You are with ‘male entitlement to women’s bodies but pass the blame onto women and pretend they want this not men’ stance.
Point at her and say she “choose” this, she did this, she caused this, she wants this so nobody turns to look at you.
“But she must be ready to face the stigma. “
So she takes all the burden, shame, pain, injury and trauma everything you euphemize as “stigma” and he gets his pound of flesh, he doesn’t face consequences or ~stigma~ and gets to absolves himself with a patriarchal society’s blessing.
Sounds like Victorian England.
Very Puritanical.
“And what are you saying here?
That men (and women even though that barely happens) should not be
allowed to buy sex by people that offer it in exchange for money?”
Yes. That is exactly what I am saying.
Men do not have the right to purchase women and use our bodies like commodities for their selfish consumption.
“What’s
the problem here?”
You and men like you.
“Your movement keeps preaching “my body my decisions” “
Prostitution and pornography is:
He makes the demand. She is the supply.
Her body, His choice.
Her pain. His pleasure.
Her sexual subordination. His sexual satisfaction.
“so obviously the decision to sell it is acceptable”
That is a disingenuous leap.
Feminism is about women being free from male oppression and male control and men buying women and women having to to be sold is not “her body her choice“.
We were talking about sex trafficking yet you still fall back on the “she ‘chose’ this“ defense.
but it won’t pass
without a stigma , which is there because of the “patriarchy”
Why are you denying there is a patriarchy when you are admitting the symptoms of what patriarchy entails exist?
You may as well admit it.
If a woman chooses to sell her body, nobody forced her . You’re trying to blame men for the choices that women make. NOBODY forced them. Nobody other than themselves. Men aren’t entitled to women’s bodies. Nobody’s entitled to take advantage of another human. But if you but something up for sale, you can’t yell at the one that buys it . Oh and, how are “men” like me the problem? I’m not a man. I’m a fucking BOY. I’m 15 years old . And no, I don’t watch porn. It gives me no pleasure whatsoever, so here goes that argument you were about to drop
“If a woman chooses to sell her body, nobody forced her.”
Why do you assume no one forced her?
Women can be forced to ‘chose‘ this.
They be forced to ‘chose‘ this a lot easier than you seem to think.
Poverty, children to feed, drug and alcohol addiction (which they may not have had before prostitution), their country being unstable, blackmail, trickery, debt bondage,
“You’re trying
to blame men for the choices that women make.”
Men are to blame for what women are forced into.
If men didn’t impoverish women she wouldn’t be in the brothel.
If men didn’t pimp women she wouldn’t be far away from home.
If men didn’t make the demand for women’s bodies the sex trade wouldn’t exist.
You are shifting the blame onto women for what men do and what men demand and blaming the (victimised/trafficked) woman.
The men who buy women know exactly what they are doing. They have forums, search the internet for brothels, look up places where prostitution is advertised, have contacts etc. why aren’t you questioning their choices?
Isn’t it patronising to the men who buy sex and men in general to absolve them of the actions and choices?
“NOBODY forced them.”
Yeah they just decided to leave their poor(er) nations and travel to Germany to work in mega brothels. Nice men paid for their travel expenses and hold their passports for ‘safekeeping’. It is just another form of backpacking across Europe and the brothels are just travel lodges.
Don’t look at the man who is suspiciously always nearby just look at her.
(We were talking about sex trafficking if I need to remind you.)
“Nobody
other than themselves.”
So they are sex trafficking themselves and got themselves raped?
“Men aren’t entitled to women’s bodies.”
But they are entitled to buy them because without caring how these women came to be prostituted there was an offer (regardless of who is making the offer and what circumstances lead to the offer).
You are contradicting yourself.
“Nobody’s
entitled to take advantage of another human. But if you but something up
for sale, you can’t yell at the one that buys it.”
Of course you can.
If someone buys someone’s kidney (even if they offered) you can yell at them.
In fact you can arrest the kidney buyer because that is a crime.
If someone knowingly buys stolen goods they can be charged for being in possession of stolen goods.
If a person or organisation buys artifacts they can be reprimanded if those artifacts were not legally and ethically procured
Just because there is an offer doesn’t automatically mean it is ok to take it.
Bonus question: If a pimp is putting a woman up for sale is it ok?
“I’m a fucking BOY. I’m 15 years old . And no, I don’t watch porn. It gives me no pleasure whatsoever, so here goes that argument you were about to drop“
Yet you are still defending it.
You are contributing to the problem when you defend it.
Don’t you ever wonder where you learned your “she chose this” stance?
You use the same arguments and denials that sex industry advocates and johns use.
You look even more suspicious than men because men make up half the world’s fucking population and don’t have a choice about being men
Meanwhile, feminists are part of a group. You CHOOSE to be a feminist.
So you may want to rethink your logic, OP.
Men chose to rape, abuse, batter, buy and sell women.
Men choose to uphold their power and unearned privilege to maintain their hierarchies.
That is their choice.
Feminism exists in large part because what men choose to do to women.
We are suspicious because many men do this yet the common response to what men do to women.
Because they throw tantrums instead addressing the problem.
Claiming that because you *choose* to be a part of a group in this context falls flat when you realise what group we are choosing to be in and why.
You do know that human traffickers are women too? Whorehouse owners are also more often than not, women. So yeah. Woman on woman abuse.
Who buys these women?
Pimps/human traffickers are usually male and I can assure you many madam run brothels have male pimps involved as well.
Madams often were previously prostituted themselves.
Exactly. Do I look like I’m defending porn? Hell no, if it’s not consensual.
Um….that doesn’t seem to be in response to what I said but ok then.
What are you trying to say?
You’re overreacting about men’s so called “privilege” that’s what I’m saying. Calm the fuck down. The world is not as bad as you desperately want it to be.
Men can buy women as sexual commodities and this is not only legal in many places in the West but increasingly socially acceptable for men to do.
The women voluntarily sell their bodies. Yes , many times it’s not consensual but humans aren’t perfect so don’t expect to live in a utopia ,yes? If a woman chooses to sell sex , then let her be.
“In addition to legalizing pimping, the Prostitution Act made it possible
for prostituted people to become regular employees, subject to taxation
and access to social benefits. Yet only 44 out of an estimated 400,000-1,000,000 prostituted people have chosen to register as prostitutes in order to access said benefits.“
Why do you think this is?
Because there is a stigma that comes with selling your body. And I don’t care if it’s a product of your so called patriarchy, the stigma is well deserved.
Aren’t you contradicting your earlier “ If a woman chooses to sell sex, then let her be“ stance?
If there is so much stigma about prostitution why do they have adverts for prostitution all over the fucking place in Germany?
How come men buying sex is openly advertised and often times condoned but being a woman selling sex has a lot of “stigma“?
“The normalization of prostitution in Germany, even among school-aged
children, has lead to young men celebrating their high school graduation
(called “Abitur”) together in brothels.
Here, it’s no big deal that boys as young as 16 go to their local
prostitution apartment to buy sex (something I see on a regular basis in
my own neighbourhood).“
This doesn’t sound like prostituition being stigmaitised among German men and even teeanage boys.
Are really going to sit there and tell me it isn’t patriarchal?
Are you really going to tell me that men buying women is just like buying coffee or driving through to buy women (thanks to legalisation of prostitution) isn’t patriarchal?
“Competing for customers means that brothel chains like the Pascha in
Cologne offer gambling games with the chance of winning a free hookup. A brothel in Berlin gives customers a “collection card” like coffee shops do — five visits will grant you a 50 per cent rebate, and your 11th visit is free.“
“In Germany, both convenience and frugality are key, and men can go to
parking garages for drive-in sex, or visit stalls called
“Verrichtungsbox” (“getting things done” boxes). They can now even order
women the way one would order a pizza thanks to a mobile app produced
last year.”
What does it tell you that men can go buy women and face no legal or
social consequences and get a pat on the back but the women in
prostitution are so “stigmatised” that they wouldn’t dare to be openly
identified aa a prostitute even if they could get these so called
benefits that the pro sex industry advocates are offering?
I’m still with the “If she wants to sell her body, let her be ” stance. But she must be ready to face the stigma. And what are you saying here? That men (and women even though that barely happens) should not be allowed to buy sex by people that offer it in exchange for money? What’s the problem here? Your movement keeps preaching “my body my decisions” so obviously the decision to sell it is acceptable , but it won’t pass without a stigma , which is there because of the “patriarchy”
“I’m still with the “If she wants to sell her body, let her be ” stance.”
You are with ‘male entitlement to women’s bodies but pass the blame onto women and pretend they want this not men’ stance.
Point at her and say she “choose” this, she did this, she caused this, she wants this so nobody turns to look at you.
“But she must be ready to face the stigma. “
So she takes all the burden, shame, pain, injury and trauma everything you euphemize as “stigma” and he gets his pound of flesh, he doesn’t face consequences or ~stigma~ and gets to absolves himself with a patriarchal society’s blessing.
Sounds like Victorian England.
Very Puritanical.
“And what are you saying here?
That men (and women even though that barely happens) should not be
allowed to buy sex by people that offer it in exchange for money?”
Yes. That is exactly what I am saying.
Men do not have the right to purchase women and use our bodies like commodities for their selfish consumption.
“What’s
the problem here?”
You and men like you.
“Your movement keeps preaching “my body my decisions” “
Prostitution and pornography is:
He makes the demand. She is the supply.
Her body, His choice.
Her pain. His pleasure.
Her sexual subordination. His sexual satisfaction.
“so obviously the decision to sell it is acceptable”
That is a disingenuous leap.
Feminism is about women being free from male oppression and male control and men buying women and women having to to be sold is not “her body her choice“.
We were talking about sex trafficking yet you still fall back on the “she ‘chose’ this“ defense.
but it won’t pass
without a stigma , which is there because of the “patriarchy”
Why are you denying there is a patriarchy when you are admitting the symptoms of what patriarchy entails exist?
You look even more suspicious than men because men make up half the world’s fucking population and don’t have a choice about being men
Meanwhile, feminists are part of a group. You CHOOSE to be a feminist.
So you may want to rethink your logic, OP.
Men chose to rape, abuse, batter, buy and sell women.
Men choose to uphold their power and unearned privilege to maintain their hierarchies.
That is their choice.
Feminism exists in large part because what men choose to do to women.
We are suspicious because many men do this yet the common response to what men do to women.
Because they throw tantrums instead addressing the problem.
Claiming that because you *choose* to be a part of a group in this context falls flat when you realise what group we are choosing to be in and why.
You do know that human traffickers are women too? Whorehouse owners are also more often than not, women. So yeah. Woman on woman abuse.
Who buys these women?
Pimps/human traffickers are usually male and I can assure you many madam run brothels have male pimps involved as well.
Madams often were previously prostituted themselves.
Exactly. Do I look like I’m defending porn? Hell no, if it’s not consensual.
Um….that doesn’t seem to be in response to what I said but ok then.
What are you trying to say?
You’re overreacting about men’s so called “privilege” that’s what I’m saying. Calm the fuck down. The world is not as bad as you desperately want it to be.
Men can buy women as sexual commodities and this is not only legal in many places in the West but increasingly socially acceptable for men to do.
The women voluntarily sell their bodies. Yes , many times it’s not consensual but humans aren’t perfect so don’t expect to live in a utopia ,yes? If a woman chooses to sell sex , then let her be.
“In addition to legalizing pimping, the Prostitution Act made it possible
for prostituted people to become regular employees, subject to taxation
and access to social benefits. Yet only 44 out of an estimated 400,000-1,000,000 prostituted people have chosen to register as prostitutes in order to access said benefits.“
Why do you think this is?
Because there is a stigma that comes with selling your body. And I don’t care if it’s a product of your so called patriarchy, the stigma is well deserved.
Aren’t you contradicting your earlier “ If a woman chooses to sell sex, then let her be“ stance?
If there is so much stigma about prostitution why do they have adverts for prostitution all over the fucking place in Germany?
How come men buying sex is openly advertised and often times condoned but being a woman selling sex has a lot of “stigma“?
“The normalization of prostitution in Germany, even among school-aged
children, has lead to young men celebrating their high school graduation
(called “Abitur”) together in brothels.
Here, it’s no big deal that boys as young as 16 go to their local
prostitution apartment to buy sex (something I see on a regular basis in
my own neighbourhood).“
This doesn’t sound like prostituition being stigmaitised among German men and even teeanage boys.
Are really going to sit there and tell me it isn’t patriarchal?
Are you really going to tell me that men buying women is just like buying coffee or driving through to buy women (thanks to legalisation of prostitution) isn’t patriarchal?
“Competing for customers means that brothel chains like the Pascha in
Cologne offer gambling games with the chance of winning a free hookup. A brothel in Berlin gives customers a “collection card” like coffee shops do — five visits will grant you a 50 per cent rebate, and your 11th visit is free.“
“In Germany, both convenience and frugality are key, and men can go to
parking garages for drive-in sex, or visit stalls called
“Verrichtungsbox” (“getting things done” boxes). They can now even order
women the way one would order a pizza thanks to a mobile app produced
last year.”
What does it tell you that men can go buy women and face no legal or
social consequences and get a pat on the back but the women in
prostitution are so “stigmatised” that they wouldn’t dare to be openly
identified aa a prostitute even if they could get these so called
benefits that the pro sex industry advocates are offering?
You look even more suspicious than men because men make up half the world’s fucking population and don’t have a choice about being men
Meanwhile, feminists are part of a group. You CHOOSE to be a feminist.
So you may want to rethink your logic, OP.
Men chose to rape, abuse, batter, buy and sell women.
Men choose to uphold their power and unearned privilege to maintain their hierarchies.
That is their choice.
Feminism exists in large part because what men choose to do to women.
We are suspicious because many men do this yet the common response to what men do to women.
Because they throw tantrums instead addressing the problem.
Claiming that because you *choose* to be a part of a group in this context falls flat when you realise what group we are choosing to be in and why.
You do know that human traffickers are women too? Whorehouse owners are also more often than not, women. So yeah. Woman on woman abuse.
Who buys these women?
Pimps/human traffickers are usually male and I can assure you many madam run brothels have male pimps involved as well.
Madams often were previously prostituted themselves.
Exactly. Do I look like I’m defending porn? Hell no, if it’s not consensual.
Um….that doesn’t seem to be in response to what I said but ok then.
What are you trying to say?
You’re overreacting about men’s so called “privilege” that’s what I’m saying. Calm the fuck down. The world is not as bad as you desperately want it to be.
Men can buy women as sexual commodities and this is not only legal in many places in the West but increasingly socially acceptable for men to do.
The women voluntarily sell their bodies. Yes , many times it’s not consensual but humans aren’t perfect so don’t expect to live in a utopia ,yes? If a woman chooses to sell sex , then let her be.
“In addition to legalizing pimping, the Prostitution Act made it possible
for prostituted people to become regular employees, subject to taxation
and access to social benefits. Yet only 44 out of an estimated 400,000-1,000,000 prostituted people have chosen to register as prostitutes in order to access said benefits.“
the women of our lifetime are being absolutely broken by porn and bdsm and the entire sex industry and i really thinks its about time we took a fucking stand already. i fear for the girls of the next lifetime who will become women in the world we leave them with.
“If we give up now younger generations of women will be told porn is good for them and they will believe it.” –Andrea Dworkin to Julie Bindel
Fuck
Yall needa stop with this anti-sex worker whorephobic shit on my dash
I never suggested it doesnt effect women outside of the sex industry.
I personally know a multitude of women currently in the sex industry in multiple aspects (full service, porn, escorts, cam models, etc) who know a lot more about their trade and how to appropriately critique and move forward in it than you do. You’re not saving anyone by ignoring these women in favor of what you believe is right. You’re dehumanizing women just as poorly as the porn you hate does.
Not to mention that a lot of the sources in that tag are outdated, the industry has seen numerous improves over the years (not saying that it doesn’t still need improvement), and there are loads of indie porn makers who are creating environments that are safe for POC, trans people, and women. So like.
please stop with the bullshit. i didnt even mention women who are in the sex industry in my op, im talking about all women being affected by the behavior of men. can you give me a reason to keep this industry around besides a very small number of privileged women choose it? because by you defending porn, you are defending the damage it does to women everywhere. women who are pressured into sex acts normalized in porn that actually injure us. women who get labiaplasty on their perfectly healthy vulvas. women who see the women in porn being paid to act like they enjoy degradation and pain and so begin to think they should enjoy abuse too.
please tell me how this gets me labelled a swerf???
“Privileged women” alright so, women who are disabled and cannot obtain vanilla, minimum wage jobs, those privileged women? Women who had no autonomy before finding a steady income in the sex industry, those privileged women? Mentally ill women who are not capable of holding vanilla work, those privileged women? Women who are unable to support themselves or their families or can’t afford to live without sex work, those privileged women?
You want to destroy a multi-faceted industry that allows these women to live day to day? If you want to do that you may want to first evaluate the way capitalism has led these women into the sex industry and first advocate for a basic income that guarantees these women money when they can’t work.
And even in that case sex work is not going away.
Also idk why you think porn performers don’t/can’t consent to certain scenes, or that women cannot genuinely consent to those acts in general. Women have been pressured into undesirable sex and raped long before porn is as pervasive in our culture as it is now. You might wanna look at that first before dismantling an industry that allows women to live day to day.
Also as I’ve said on my blog their are women currently active in the industry who are writing and publishing incredible articles on how mainstream porn can be improved and where it can go. How porn effects people’s lives. What their role is in society. They don’t need you talking over them.
Also, wanting to destroy a woman’s means of living makes you a swerf.
how you think its ok to economically coerce women into doing porn, or that i would even be including those women in my definition of privileged women who choose to be in the sex industry is beyond me. they have no choice. it is oppressive to them, and the inner workings of patriarchal systems are what needs to be dismantled in order to create conditions where women are actually free. the sex industry only perpetuates this system and solidifies mens power over women.
im not talking over anyone. porn has gotten steadily worse in content, porn will follow the demand of MEN, not women, and MEN will continue to harm women using it. i have been harmed by it myself, so why are you trying to silence me speaking out about something that i know is harmful to women and a huge aspect of the sexual violence we face every day?
do not turn your back on victims of sexual violence to defend porn. women will never gain control over this industry ever. its propaganda for misogyny that grooms men to be violent and women to enjoy abuse. and i dont care what it hypothetically could be in a different world. we live in this one.
You said the “small number” of “privileged” women who do sex work so I’m just pointing out a few examples of the NUMEROUS women across the world who do sex work. From India to America to Japan to Greece women across the world, from all sorts of backgrounds, do sex work, for all sorts of reasons. It has been around for hundreds of years. Get a clue.
Literally, sex workers (I am a former sex worker fyi) tell people to stop speaking over them. Regularly. People who have never done sex work are not in the position to say how it should be fixed. Period. You don’t know what you’re talking about if you have not been doing it yourself and been in that position. You are talking over people who actually do sex work.
I’m literally telling you that there are women, there are trans people, there are POC who are right now creating their own porn and their own environments that do not mimic what a lot of mainstream porn does. These are people changing the industry from the inside. Like you said, we live in this world, and there are people in this world leading and changing the industry for the better. Even women in mainstream porn, who deserve to be listened to. Would you like links to see so for yourself? Cause I’m not speaking hypothetically.
And since you’re not interested in what it could be in a different world, maybe just accept the fact that sex work will be around for a long while (as in, for good) and support women who do it and their work on improving it.
show me where in my original post i brought up sex workers. you are the one who brought up the subject and then accused me for speaking over them? no. you brought it up all on your own because you dont want me to talk about porn or bdsm at all.
either the women in the sex industry chose it from a place of privilege (meaning they want to be there despite having other choices) or they were trafficked or there to survive. of course we should be helping them, but with exit programs to give them education and money and ways of sustaining themselves so they can be independent without the need of selling their bodies. so… siding with the privileged few who choose it instead of siding with the vast majority who dont AND the rest of the population affected by mens porn/bdsm-influenced violence doesnt make an iota of logical sense. its downright selfish.
maybe you should try imagining a different world without the sex industry instead of trying so hard to keep it around. because women will never have control over it. the sex industry is funded by male demand, and they will not allow the “feminist” “indie” stuff to ever replace mainstream. the money will keep funneling into degrading women and reinforcing the sex stereotypes and roles of femininity and masculinity. you are the one who cant picture life without it.
You tell me you don’t care about hypothetical worlds because we have to deal with the world we’re living in now, then tell me to imagine a different world and that I can’t picture life without it… What? But you don’t like hypothetical worlds?
Why are you not listening? You can’t claim to care about women then not listen to the opinions of women in the sex industry. Do you need resources? Why don’t you go to sex workers and talk to them? Learn where they are coming from? What they think needs to change in the industry? What has changed over the past 10 years?
You can’t possibly know what works for these workers when you clearly only repeat radfem narratives without input from sex workers. Like having Trump as president… Having a man with no political background as president makes no sense. It makes no sense to have women who haven’t done sex work leading this narrative.
You clearly have a vast misunderstanding of sex work. I know of resources for you, if you’re willing to listen for once. Btw, exit programs often can lead to exploitation of workers. Also, to your first point, you can’t talk about bdsm and porn as though they’re separate from the people in them. These are kinks/industries that center around people. You can’t talk about porn without there being people in it.
you are only trying to protect the women that want to be there. those are the women you are telling me to listen to over the vast majority of women who want out. and you refuse to address the male demand that dictates what is shown in pornography and what women are supposed to look like naked. and they always have when it comes to paying for sex. tell me exactly how the sex industry is supposed to run itself without catering to male demand and $$$ and misogynistic outlooks?
give me your resources. i promise to read them. ive already linked you a huge post of actual performers from porn talking about what happens to them. but you should address the point i have made about the effect it has on everyone and know that i will be reading your resources with women as an entire sex caste in mind.
These pro-prostitution people are really disgusting. They need to educate themselves…
Here is a video of a Panel of Survivors of Sex Trafficking and Prostitution. The women against prostitution WERE prostituted. They are against it. They ARE leading the narrative.
I don’t know what the context of this ask is because I haven’t talked about this in a long time but I am completely against the sex and porn industries and you won’t convince me that’s a “"white”“” thing when Nigerian women are being trafficked and forced into prostitution in Italy and the rest of western Europe, when the sex industry in east asia was built buy colonialism and orientalism, when the us (and other western) military pushes millions of women in occupied territories into extreme poverty which leaves them more vulnerable to traffickers and forcing women into prostitution as there is little (or no) other way to survive in war torn countries. All of this contributes to the sex industry / sex tourism so no, being against such industries is not a “"white”“ thing and if you’d read the work of nonwhite radical feminists / postcolonial feminists you’d know that. I will always prioritise the safety and wellbeing of women forced into the sex industry (especially those from nonwestern countries) over the small minority of women who are there by “choice” (even this is arguable because economic coercion.) To be pro woman is to eliminate the economic coercion which forces women into such industries to survive and the colonialist exploitation of nonwhite and/or nonwestern women and their countries.
I work with 15 year old girls who are so brainwashed by their pimps. They will try to run away from a safe place to get back to this man. They have stop orders on them if they run so we have to restrain them from going back to a life of abuse. They have specific lists of who they can call and I have to listen to their intimate conversations with mom, grandma.
Sometimes we fail. And she gets away. And we never see her again.
These same girls have their pimp aggressively looking for them. To him, she is no different than a 20 year old other than the fact she can make him much more money. To him, she is property. He calls the house to find her. He goes to family members houses posing as a social worker. He waits outside the facility in case she runs. We are to call the police when we see them. Cops show up, this man walks free. Despite being a known child trafficker with tattoos of his name on a 14 year olds body.
So when I hear you defend prostitution, this is what I hear you defending. These pimps are not anomalies and they do not solely prey upon children. They are the ones managing the women who you so strongly defend the right to abuse.
If you defend prostitution or purchase women’s bodies, you are defending child trafficking and unimaginable suffering.
Celtyradfem 